The Science of Brining

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sydking
Posts: 343
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Re: The Science of Brining

Post by sydking » Tue Jun 25, 2013 5:52 pm

bobzed57 wrote:Great discussion thread.

I had my first crack at brining last weekend when I brined a whole chook in a brine of 2l chicken stock (powdered), 1.75l water, 3/4 cup of cooking salt, 1/2 cup of honey and 1tbsp of cloves. Popped in a zip lock bag for 20 hours and cooked in the Kamado.

The flesh was the moistest chicken I've ever eaten although when it was warm, it was salty. Not unpleasantly so, but to taste more than I would normally use. But, when the meat was cold it had that wonderful cured meat flavour and made a fantastic sandwich the next day. I suspect a bit more playing around with quantities and time, I'll work out a happy medium.

I'll also give the chicken wing test a shot.

Cheers and thanks for the tips.

Bob
I think the use of a powdered stock AND salt will be the cause for a bit salty - Id be inclined to double the stock powder and drop the salt altogether if you wanted to flavor in that way

Iv found along as there is some sort or salt/sugar is any form it will work

I did a duck in orange juice and a salty Asian duck spice

Yum!


bobzed57
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Re: The Science of Brining

Post by bobzed57 » Tue Jun 25, 2013 5:56 pm

sydking wrote:
bobzed57 wrote:Great discussion thread.

I had my first crack at brining last weekend when I brined a whole chook in a brine of 2l chicken stock (powdered), 1.75l water, 3/4 cup of cooking salt, 1/2 cup of honey and 1tbsp of cloves. Popped in a zip lock bag for 20 hours and cooked in the Kamado.

The flesh was the moistest chicken I've ever eaten although when it was warm, it was salty. Not unpleasantly so, but to taste more than I would normally use. But, when the meat was cold it had that wonderful cured meat flavour and made a fantastic sandwich the next day. I suspect a bit more playing around with quantities and time, I'll work out a happy medium.

I'll also give the chicken wing test a shot.

Cheers and thanks for the tips.

Bob
I think the use of a powdered stock AND salt will be the cause for a bit salty - Id be inclined to double the stock powder and drop the salt altogether if you wanted to flavor in that way

Iv found along as there is some sort or salt/sugar is any form it will work

I did a duck in orange juice and a salty Asian duck spice

Yum!
Thanks.

The only reason I used powdered stock was poor planning on my part and too lazy to get down the shops and buy some real stock. I'll try your suggestion on the powdered stock.

Cheers
Bob

Vision Grills Kamado, 5 Burner (mains gas), Weber Kettle, Weber hibachi, Anuka electric smoker and Canberra Metters wood stove, all supported with kegged home brew :-)

Basher
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Re: The Science of Brining

Post by Basher » Sun Mar 09, 2014 9:43 am

Amazing ribs confirms this..... In his own style and a little science.
http://www.amazingribs.com/recipes/rubs ... rines.html
You will never know until you have a go!

Richtee
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Re: The Science of Brining

Post by Richtee » Thu Mar 20, 2014 9:34 pm

Basher wrote:Amazing ribs confirms this..... In his own style and a little science.
http://www.amazingribs.com/recipes/rubs ... rines.html
Confirms what, exactly?

I got worried when they used iodized table salt in the brine. No No Never!

And they did not mention a phosphate brine... which allows the use of less salt, and makes the process more efficient, faster and effective.

I guess the lesson here is you should take all info on the Net "with a grain of salt". Say what you will- a properly done brine enhances the meat texture, flavor and moisture.

Try it yourself with a couple chicken breasts... NATURAL ones..not previously injected/brined. I think the results will speak for themselves.

peteru
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Re: The Science of Brining

Post by peteru » Thu Mar 20, 2014 10:12 pm

Richtee wrote:And they did not mention a phosphate brine... which allows the use of less salt, and makes the process more efficient, faster and effective.
@Richtee I must start by saying that I have never tried your products, but from all accounts they are in a class of their own, so I have respect for your opinions, but... ;-)

I've had some Inghams (major Australian brand for poultry) Turkey breast roast which was brined with phosphates and sold as a frozen product. The roast was composed of one large chunk of Turkey breast with a few smaller bits chucked in to make up the target 2kg package. This was all wrapped in alfoil and the alfoil package was vacuum packed. The cooking instructions said to remove the outer plastic, bake in alfoil for an hour, then unwrap and finish off the cooking process uncovered and at higher temperature. I didn't follow those instructions, instead I unpacked the whole lot, placed the individual bits of meat in the Kamado. I folded the large chunk onto itself to get a more round shape and took it 60C internal at 120-130C, then ramped up to 200C until internal got to 70C. It looked the part, but I noticed that for whatever reason, the meat fused together. It's like the brine has somehow "melted" the meat and as it baked it solidified together again. Unexpected, but not an extreme worry.

The taste - not so good. Maybe it was the phosphate, maybe something else, but the product had a weird salty, but not salty feel to it. It wasn't a purely chemical off taste or anything I could put my finger on, it just had that not-quite-right flavour to it. The only saving grace was the lovely smoke ring and peach wood flavour and side dishes.

Have you ever heard of anyone being more sensitive / objecting to phosphate based brines? Can they be overdone / botched? It was my first experience with phosphate brined meat and I was not impressed with the result. I'm not asserting that your product can be lumped in with this one, I'm more interested in your opinion, since you are our resident expert on this topic.

Cheers!
____________
"Beauty lies in the hands of the beer holder."

Richtee
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Re: The Science of Brining

Post by Richtee » Wed Mar 26, 2014 8:05 am

peteru wrote:
Richtee wrote:And they did not mention a phosphate brine... which allows the use of less salt, and makes the process more efficient, faster and effective.
peteru wrote:@Richtee I must start by saying that I have never tried your products, but from all accounts they are in a class of their own, so I have respect for your opinions, but... ;-)
Hey... buts are OK. I'm a but man meself :D
peteru wrote:I've had some Inghams (major Australian brand for poultry) Turkey breast roast which was brined with phosphates and sold as a frozen product. The roast was composed of one large chunk of Turkey breast with a few smaller bits chucked in to make up the target 2kg package. This was all wrapped in alfoil and the alfoil package was vacuum packed. The cooking instructions said to remove the outer plastic, bake in alfoil for an hour, then unwrap and finish off the cooking process uncovered and at higher temperature. I didn't follow those instructions, instead I unpacked the whole lot, placed the individual bits of meat in the Kamado. I folded the large chunk onto itself to get a more round shape and took it 60C internal at 120-130C, then ramped up to 200C until internal got to 70C. It looked the part, but I noticed that for whatever reason, the meat fused together. It's like the brine has somehow "melted" the meat and as it baked it solidified together again. Unexpected, but not an extreme worry.
Most likely what you encountered there was "meat glue". I have done a bit of work with it..it's cool..but has it's limitations. I won't get into it here..but they WANTED that thing to be a roast. Perhaps the phos facilitated this... but it sounds like their intent was one hunk. Not unlike the "formed hams" etc...
peteru wrote:The taste - not so good. Maybe it was the phosphate, maybe something else, but the product had a weird salty, but not salty feel to it. It wasn't a purely chemical off taste or anything I could put my finger on, it just had that not-quite-right flavour to it. The only saving grace was the lovely smoke ring and peach wood flavour and side dishes.
Would you call it...soapy? perhaps? Classic over phos content complaint.
peteru wrote:Have you ever heard of anyone being more sensitive / objecting to phosphate based brines? Can they be overdone / botched? It was my first experience with phosphate brined meat and I was not impressed with the result. I'm not asserting that your product can be lumped in with this one, I'm more interested in your opinion, since you are our resident expert on this topic.

Cheers!
I suppose it's possible. I can 'taste" MSG. Very few can tell it's in something. But phos brining CAN be over-done. You may get a mealy texture, the 'soapy" notes..and interestingly enough..when a slice is viewed on the correct angle, a "rainbow" effect seen in the meat. You must follow directions when using this method of brining. If anything one is best going a little light on amounts rather than heavy. A more concentrated solution will not help with timing much..only possibly mess up the meat.

Obviously I can't speak to the process and what-not used on the hunk you had, but it sounds like perhaps it was incorrectly processed.

Smokey
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Re: The Science of Brining

Post by Smokey » Wed Mar 26, 2014 12:08 pm

I wonder if food grade Phosphate is available for purchase ? Id like to experiment with it.
If trees screamed when we cut them down, We wouldn't. If they screamed all the time we would.
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titch
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Re: The Science of Brining

Post by titch » Wed Mar 26, 2014 12:22 pm

http://www.icl-pp.com/en-us/Solutions/F ... ation.aspx

this mob have a supplier in Heatherton , not too far from me
Cheers
Titch

Bill44
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Re: The Science of Brining

Post by Bill44 » Wed Mar 26, 2014 2:20 pm

In the case of the Turkey wrapped in Alfoil, my experience is that anything salty should not be brought into long term contact with anything aluminium or you get a characteristic unusual salty type of taste due to a reaction between the two.
I first discovered this some years ago when I wrapped a piece of home cooked corned beef in Alfoil, never again believe me.
Bill
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urbangriller
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Re: The Science of Brining

Post by urbangriller » Wed Mar 26, 2014 5:17 pm

Bill44 wrote:In the case of the Turkey wrapped in Alfoil, my experience is that anything salty should not be brought into long term contact with anything aluminium or you get a characteristic unusual salty type of taste due to a reaction between the two.
I first discovered this some years ago when I wrapped a piece of home cooked corned beef in Alfoil, never again believe me.
Dead right Bill!

Wrap in baking paper, then foil. Same if you are covering a baking dish or roasting pan,....baking paper first then foil, so the foil cannot contact the food. Acidic foods will disolve the Alminium.

Chris
Common Sense is so rare these days it should be a Super Power!

peteru
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Re: The Science of Brining

Post by peteru » Wed Mar 26, 2014 10:22 pm

Richtee wrote:Would you call it...soapy? perhaps? Classic over phos content complaint.
Yeah, soapy is probably the closest description.

I guess I won't be buying this Ingham's turkey stuff again. There's no similarity between the picture on the packaging and the product inside. Buying a whole unprocessed dead bird is a much better proposition. I'll assume that they have just gone overboard with all the chemicals they used, including phosphate brine.

And maybe I'm also a bit more sensitive to phosphate "flavours", since my wife did not have a complaint. So far a 3-6% salt brine seems to work best for me. :D
____________
"Beauty lies in the hands of the beer holder."

Meat and eat
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Re: The Science of Brining

Post by Meat and eat » Wed Mar 26, 2014 10:33 pm

Richtee wrote:
I got worried when they used iodized table salt in the brine. No No Never!
Richtee,
What is the main problem with using iodized table salt in a brine?

Thanks
Cheers

Meat and eat
"My mind is made up. Please don't confuse me with facts."

Smokey
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Re: The Science of Brining

Post by Smokey » Thu Mar 27, 2014 12:12 am

peteru wrote:
Richtee wrote:Would you call it...soapy? perhaps? Classic over phos content complaint.
Yeah, soapy is probably the closest description.

I guess I won't be buying this Ingham's turkey stuff again. There's no similarity between the picture on the packaging and the product inside. Buying a whole unprocessed dead bird is a much better proposition. I'll assume that they have just gone overboard with all the chemicals they used, including phosphate brine.

And maybe I'm also a bit more sensitive to phosphate "flavours", since my wife did not have a complaint. So far a 3-6% salt brine seems to work best for me. :D
I think you are spot on mate, My wife loves them but I hate the bloody things no matter what brand. Ritch is right, They are packed in glue.
They are convienient however for a quik feed when camping or just on the hop.

This discussion has me thinking about if phosphates are worth while, or any good to consume if they put it in junk fizzy drinks.
I just dont know
If trees screamed when we cut them down, We wouldn't. If they screamed all the time we would.
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urbangriller
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Re: The Science of Brining

Post by urbangriller » Fri Mar 28, 2014 12:15 pm

Meat and eat wrote:
Richtee wrote:
I got worried when they used iodized table salt in the brine. No No Never!
Richtee,
What is the main problem with using iodized table salt in a brine?

Thanks
Cheers

Meat and eat
Iodine can taint in contact with certain foods and acids. it will react with foil, cast iron and other metals.

Cheers
Chris
Common Sense is so rare these days it should be a Super Power!

henry
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Re: The Science of Brining

Post by henry » Sun Apr 20, 2014 9:33 am

I'm brining for the first time today. Came across some Seppo Holiday Turkey Brine so I kind of copied it a little. Just made some cold stock from Vegeta Vegtable Stock and just under a cup of salt to about 4 litres of liquid. It's a bit more than suggested here in your article Chris. I figured that since the salt dissolved it should be ok.

By the way am I blind? I can't find these big ziplock bags big enough for a Turkey at the supermarket?
Against GST on fresh produce which will increase your cost of Bbqing? Love to hear your thoughts here below.
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