Pellet cooked Duck

[urbangriller]

It's basic smoking/BBQ Dave.

The faster you cook something, the less time the smoke has to do its thing. The meat really only takes on smoke till it hits 65(ish) degrees C. at 177C (350F) the bird gets to 65C quicker, therefore less exposure to the smoke.

Do one without Brine as a test......you won't get anywhere near the smoke ring, the smokering is formed by the smoke combining with the moisture on the surface.

Cheers
Chris

And Jester, I didn't say it was the phosphate, I said it was the Brine.

You don't think the ice bath or his constant basting affected the smoke ring?

No' I don't think it's the Ice Bath, it's the brining. Do the test I suggested...cook one without brine.

Chris

[Dave]

No' I don't think it's the Ice Bath, it's the brining. Do the test I suggested...cook one without brine.

Chris

This is all still off topic .....

Im sorry Chris, I cannot agree with you at all.

From my personal experience Brining has little or no affect on the Smoke Ring, it the temperature its cooked at that makes the difference.

Brining and salt content in our diets are just like everything else, now & then wont have any impact at all, maybe if you ate brined poultry every day it then would, but as Jester said, anything else is nothing more than scaremongering.

I personally wouldn't consider cooking any poultry without brining, it makes a massive difference to the end result.

Dave

[Davo]

Don't mind a decent debate fellas....just keep it nice and civil...that's all we ask...oh yeah and keep it on topic

[Smokey]

The duck looks good, but is definitely hammed, I picked it in a second.
The same thing can happen with a salt brine or does happen.
Since the product placement of a phosphate product was carefully included I think Chris's contribution is on topic.
It's also not scaremongering to make people aware of clear and present dangers.
Particularly if that person knows better, then it becomes moral duty.

[shayneh2006]

The duck looks good, but is definitely hammed, I picked it in a second.The same thing can happen with a salt brine or does happen.

Mmmmm, I disagree on the last part of that statement Mick.

I often brine Ducks for 24hours+ (even know to inject them with it), don't use smoke and definitely, don't end up with a "Hammed texture".


Shayne

[Dave]

The duck looks good, but is definitely hammed, I picked it in a second.The same thing can happen with a salt brine or does happen.

Mmmmm, I disagree on the last part of that statement Mick.

I often brine Ducks for 24hours+ (even know to inject them with it), don't use smoke and definitely, don't end up with a "Hammed texture".

Shayne

I agree Shayne.

Regarding the phosphate, Yes, it adds, but it's nothing to worry about, unless you have conditions that you must consider. As someone with high blood pressure has to avoid sodium.

Apart from that, its no big deal.

Cheers, Dave

[urbangriller]

No' I don't think it's the Ice Bath, it's the brining. Do the test I suggested...cook one without brine.

Chris

I personally wouldn't consider cooking any poultry without brining, it makes a massive difference to the end result.

Dave

The original post is NOT brined Dave....and both cooked on pellets.





Chris

[Dave]

Not following you Chris. What original post? The top photo?

Have no idea what you are saying here.

[Smokey]

The duck looks good, but is definitely hammed, I picked it in a second.The same thing can happen with a salt brine or does happen.

Mmmmm, I disagree on the last part of that statement Mick.

I often brine Ducks for 24hours+ (even know to inject them with it), don't use smoke and definitely, don't end up with a "Hammed texture".


Shayne

True and you would know.
Let me expand, Using your salt brine it's still pickled somewhat (think no nitrate bacon)
Some times you will find parts with a pink look, particularly in chicken.
The issue is not the pink, there or not. and too much salt is no good either. It's the Phosphate levels and the duck in question was obviously affected in a big way by the brine that was advertised. Pellet grills don't produce that much smoke and is why there are after market smoke generators suggested for them. Nothing wrong with that, It's just the way it is.
There are smoke rings and then there are smoke rings.
I'd probably enjoy that duck in the second pic above but I sure as hell would not feed it to my kids, or wife.
How much phosphate is in a serve? 1000mg or 10000mg

[shayneh2006]

This discussion has been interesting…..

And now, after a bit of research into Sodium Phosphate, I am starting to understand more.

Looking at Dave’s recipe and doing some calcs, I don’t think it’s of any real threat to one’s health, if mixed as per instructed, or at the very least, mixed accordingly to his slow cooked Duck recipe.

I am sure the Mad Hunky suppliers would have researched this, before release but here is my take on it..

Take when I am wet curing Ham for instance, using cure #1 (6% Nitrite)...


The recipe I use, after pumping the Pork and soaking in the wet cure, it allows for a 10% uptake , per net weight of Pork( deduction of bone/skin content allowed for)!!!! So that said, mathematically, I can work out roughly how much Nitrite has been taken on board by weighing before and after the curing process.

Soooo,
To really work out the amount of Sodium Phosphate is in a product brined using Mad Hunky, one would need to weigh it before and after the brining process, then work it out from there.

Remember, the resulting value would be approx., but close enough.

And, until that happens, all that’s been said is guess work .



So, I am going to make some assumptions………

After a little bit more research, one source I read suggested 6% uptake could be expected when brining Poultry.

Sooooo, making assumptions here that this is correct……………….


Say Dave’s Duck was 2.2 kgs gross weight(about average these days)

Then, you need to realise that not all of this will account as edible. There’s heaps of shit you won’t eat [Bone, Fat(that renders anyway), Neck, Kidneys and skin for some].


So say…. 50% is wasted, inedible,,,
His Duck is now reduced to 1.1kgs net.

That said, his Duck possibly would have taken on approx 66gr of Brine (1100gr x 6%).

Enough of that said….

I have sussed out that his dry packet mixture contains 25% Sodium Phosphate.

In his recipe for the Duck, he mixes 8 tablespoons of dry brine mix with 1000mls of water.
Given that 1 tablespoon equates to 20 grams (approx.), his total brine mixture now should weigh 1160 grams.

So, 160 grams of dry brine mix @ 25% Sodium Phosphate= 40 grams (3.44%)Sodium Phosphate is in his wet brine.

Now, 66gr wet brine uptake x 3.44% = 2.27 grams (2270mg) of Sodium Phosphate that has been absorbed by his Duck…

Were not finished……………

Now, we need to work out the Sodium Phosphate that actually in the meat itself

Now, given all that’s provided on the chart given here
http://www.aussiebbq.info/forum/viewtop ... 19&t=13354
there is no values given for Duck, sooo, I will make another assumption and use the value given for Beef Sirloin (about average) @ 203mg Sodium Phosphate per 84 grams of meat.

This equals .241% Sodium Phosphate



That value applied equates to 2.651grams (2651mg) Sodium Phosphate per 1100 grams of his Duck meat.



Add the sum of the two resulting values (2270mg + 2651mg) = 4921 mg Sodium Phosphate total

Now, no one’s gunna eat a whole Duck….. (I could I guess )

A 2.2 kg Duck will feed 6, with sides so each would have consumed 820mg Sodium Phosphate.

If my calcs are correct, I would be more than happy to feed this to myself and family.

To Summarise, ya not going to be eating this every day, rather, have it for a weekly or fortnightly Sunday dinner……… and to be honest, I’d be more concerned about cholesterol uptake when eating a Duck…, or the Beers and Wine that go with it .

Finally, pffft to the health warnings…………


Shayne

[Dave]

This discussion has been interesting…..

And now, after a bit of research into Sodium Phosphate, I am starting to understand more.

Looking at Dave’s recipe and doing some calcs, I don’t think it’s of any real threat to one’s health, if mixed as per instructed, or at the very least, mixed accordingly to his slow cooked Duck recipe.

I am sure the Mad Hunky suppliers would have researched this, before release but here is my take on it..

Now, no one’s gunna eat a whole Duck….. (I could I guess )

A 2.2 kg Duck will feed 6, with sides so each would have consumed 820mg Sodium Phosphate.

If my calcs are correct, I would be more than happy to feed this to myself and family.

To Summarise, ya not going to be eating this every day, rather, have it for a weekly or fortnightly Sunday dinner……… and to be honest, I’d be more concerned about cholesterol uptake when eating a Duck…, or the Beers and Wine that go with it .

Finally, pffft to the health warnings…………

Shayne

Shayne, "well done indeed" extremely comprehensive!

As Jester said, nothing more than "Scaremongering" & at its best

Im cooking Duck with Meatman over Easter & will definitely be taking my MH Poultry Brine, as I said from the start, its a "Game Changer" for me with poultry ( if anyone wants a sample posted out, please PM me )

Cheers, Dave

[shayneh2006]

Yeh, well I just ate almost a packet of Chickdees @ 265mg of Sodium per 25 grams writing that up , all after a BBQ dinner

That+

Almost 2 liters of Pabst Beer,,,,,, I am in real trouble

Time to get clean, and give it all away



Shayne

[Smokey]

We'll done Shayne, Though you add up like me, All tradie like.
I'm not so sure it works like that.
Maybe measuring the salinity lost from the brine might tell a different story?
In the seventys I was put on a "naughty diet" and some smart doctor back then figured out that phosphates and other crap put into my food was making me climb walls. It was he'll for Mum and Dad but the whole family benefited from the new diet. Now I have Two boys and one is much Like I was. I put him onto a Palio diet and it settles his spectrum disorder dramatically.
It would be interesting to bring in a medical expert and a dietitian into the debate.

[beachbums]

Where's Amfib when you need him?

Liked Shanes reasoned out post, good stuff.

Cheers, Wayne

[shayneh2006]

We'll done Shayne, Though you add up like me, All tradie like

Cheers Mick....

But like I said, it was just rough guide..

There would be a heap of variables.

One comes quickly to mind,,, is the amount of time in the brine, and more importantly, if it is fully submerged.

The way Dave does it in the bag, is not a sufficient way as far as I am concerned, as the meat isn't in constant contact with the brine.

That said, meat will only take up what it can before it gets logged down with brine, so,,,,,,,,,,,,,

In his # 4 picture, the top side of the Duck is out of the Brine.

Unless he continually rotated it, whilst in his fridge, at given intervals, parts of his Duck wouldn't of had sufficient uptake and hence,,,

His total amount of Sodium Phosphate would be at lower levels,,,,, if my original calcs were somewhere in the ball game.

That would be beneficial for those worried about the health aspect of it all.

For me, well, I am not concerned.

In reality, if I had his brine on hand, and what I know now after tonight, yeh, I would use it......

But I don't have to,,,,as I am real happy with my home made brines, Salt, Raw Sugar and fresh chopped herbs.......



Shayne