Extra Phosphates - Good or Bad ?

[urbangriller]

Mod Edit : This topic has been moved out of it's original location where it grew legs and had a life of it's own. Good topic but it was in the wrong place.

Don't add more Phosphate to your diet (love the subtle photos of the packet Dave!) .....but it does explain the smoke ring, it's the brine not the BBQ! One serve of meat and two beers any you are already at your Phosphate limit for the day (700g).

Chris

[shayneh2006]

Don't add more Phosphate to your diet

Am I missing something here

What the hell is Phosphate? and how has Dave introduced extra levels by the way he cooked his Duck.

That said, (and I will wait for replies on this), I loved the way you did your Duck Dave, and will take on this recipe and apply it done Kettle style


Thanks for sharing this, to be added to my all time favourite Poultry.................... "Duck"


Shayne

[Smokey]

Bird poo?
I checked it out and gave up after finding out what they put it in.
Too much for this black duck so left it alone.

[shayneh2006]

I'm assuming the Phosphate is in the Brine

Ahhhhhh....

If I am reading this right, its an additive to the packet mix brine that you have used?????

And if so, using a conventional home made brine steers you clear of this Phosphate

Please, someone clarify this as I am pretty confused right now



Shayne

[Jester]

Don't add more Phosphate to your diet

Livestrong say its safe
http://www.livestrong.com/article/40858 ... ate-label/

Basically its just a different type of salt. You know how salt put on ice makes it melt? That's its effect on surface tension. Phosphates have a greater effect on surface tension so they're more effective for brines... mixes easier,penetrates meat faster, holds on to more moisture and prevents over brining.

but it does explain the smoke ring, it's the brine not the BBQ

I always thought it was nitrate that improved the smoke ring, not phosphates. The most common products I've heard used for a fake smoke ring are tenderquick and curing salts - neither of those contain phosphates. Happy to be proven wrong though.

[Jester]

Don't add more Phosphate to your diet... One serve of meat and two beers any you are already at your Phosphate limit for the day (700g).Chris

Glad you edited it, but 700mg is the supplemental recommended daily allowance. You don't need supplements because its available widely in a healthy diet. Healthy adults can consume over 5 times that (4g) without a problem. http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/drug ... l/735.html

[urbangriller]

Don't add more Phosphate to your diet... One serve of meat and two beers any you are already at your Phosphate limit for the day (700g).Chris

Glad you edited it, but 700mg is the supplemental recommended daily allowance. You don't need supplements because its available widely in a healthy diet. Healthy adults can consume over 5 times that (4g) without a problem. http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/drug ... l/735.html

That’s not what the World Health Organisation says!

Perhaps you should read this on Taking control of Attention Deficit Disorder:
http://www.phosadd.com/diet/diet.htm

Here is a snippet:
The Connection between ADD and Diet
It has long been known that consumption of certain foods and beverages can have a noticeable and particularly bad effect on children, causing severe problems. For example, children with sensitivities may become extremely hyperactive after having coloured cordials or fruit syrup drinks, hot dogs, various junk foods and cola drinks. ADD, ADHD and related conditions are ones for which conventional medicine offers mainly drug treatments; stimulants which suppress symptoms but do not remove causes. Other management techniques - such as psychological intervention, educational and behavioural management programmes - often do not produce the desired results. Hertha Hafer's research explains why this is so.

Hafer's background as a researcher has made it possible to make a connection between the food we eat and the symptoms which manifest themselves as ADD/ADHD. While it has long been known that some foods can make the condition worse, why was not known. Hafer's genius lies in her close analytical investigation of the chemical components of the foods we consume. She discovered that there is a common component in the foods that affect ADD children.

That component is phosphate. Hertha wrote down her findings and published them in a book The Hidden Drug - Dietary Phosphate (Cause of Behaviour Problems, Learning Difficulties and Juvenile Delinquency).

http://www.phosadd.com/recipes/low-phosphate%20diet.htm

Here is a snippet:
The World Health Organisation (WHO), for instance, recommends that approximately 800-1000 mg phosphorous (as phosphates) should be consumed daily and this phosphate intake should be consumed in a 1:1 ratio with calcium. Phosphorous is a mineral that occurs naturally in many foods. However, when phosphorous is consumed in large quantities, the calcium/phosphorous balance is disrupted, leading to deficiencies in mineral absorption. Subsequently, a myriad of health problems may erupt, with ADD/ADHD being one of them.

No wonder there are so many spoilt self opinionated brats around nowadays!

Perhaps you’d prefer your bad news to come from the Kidney Health guys:
http://www.kidney.org/professionals/kdo ... guide4.htm



So, lets say you eat 300g of beef at dinner, that's 716 mg of phosphate, lets say also that you have two beers, that's another 86mg of phosphate...giving a total of 802mg!.......oooopps, better not have sweets, or breakfast or lunch the next day!

I say again, don’t put more phosphate in your diet than is already there and Do Not Feed it to your Kids!
There is already too much phosphate in our diets!


Chris

[Jester]

Yes, this is off topic now!

Perhaps you’d prefer your bad news to come from the Kidney Health guys:
http://www.kidney.org/professionals/kdo ... guide4.htm

Chris

Interesting link - "RESTRICTION OF DIETARY PHOSPHORUS IN PATIENTS WITH CKD". That's Chronic Kidney Disease. The recommended daily intake of phosphates is 800-1000mg a day if you have stage 3-4 kidney disease. Stage 5 is kidney failure... so yeah, if you're in that boat you should limit phosphates. But if you're in that boat, you wouldn't be eating protein without supplements. Obviously, for a healthy adult, its very different.

At the end of the day, Phosphates are ubiquitous in the food supply chain and this is scaremongering.

[urbangriller]

Not Scaremongering...Fact is there is already too much phosphate in our diets by WHO standards.

There is too much salt and sugar, transfats and a heap of other crap as well.

Here are your words: Basically its just a different type of salt. You know how salt put on ice makes it melt? That's its effect on surface tension. Phosphates have a greater effect on surface tension so they're more effective for brines... mixes easier,penetrates meat faster, holds on to more moisture and prevents over brining.

If it penetrates the meat and allows it to hold more moisture, what do you think it does in live muscle tissue?

I advise you don't add more phosphate to your diets! BBQ should be as healthy as we can make it!

Chris

[Smokey]

Be interesting to know how much phosphate is in meat that has been brined in it.
I know that using salt in a brine, it's easy to make meat overly salty or unhealthily salty.
Thanks for the heads up Chris, I'll take a professionals advice over those with a commercial interest in it anyday.
I'm sure it taste good though.

And mate, Did you have to include BEER in that list
Black it out so I can't see it

[Jester]

Thanks for the heads up Chris, I'll take a professionals advice over those with a commercial interest in it anyday.

I'm a sceptic, but lets see if a phosphate free brine starts getting promoted soon

But I do agree, get a professional's advice like a doctor or dietitian. These Dr Google references are not relevant to healthy adults.

The WHO quote for the ADD diet was taken out of context to suit their marketing. The full recommendation is

Acceptable Daily Intakes (ADI) of phosphorus set by the FAO/WHO Committee are fixed at 70 and 30 mg P/kg body weight, for conditional (C) (where Ca intake is high) and unconditional (UC) intake, respectively"

The reason it's higher with high calcium intake is these elements bind, which is then excreted through stool instead of urine. So for a 100kg person (average from the bods I saw at the contest ) you could consume 7000mg a day if you have a lot of calcium or 3000mg without.

If it penetrates the meat and allows it to hold more moisture, what do you think it does in live muscle tissue?

That's like saying drinking water thins your blood. A healthy body is very capable of dealing with most aspects of our diet and phosphorous is an essential mineral, second only to calcium in our bodies. Any more than needed is just pissed out.

[urbangriller]

I'm a sceptic, but lets see if a phosphate free brine starts getting promoted soon

Salt + water = Brine.............No Phosphate!

NaCl + H2O

..............No PO43- in that!

[gindemon]

There is an incredible amount of misinformation in this thread. If you want robust, peer reviewed, evidence based, published literature on phosphate metabolism check out:

Baker SB, Worthley LI. The essentials of calcium, magnesium and phosphate metabolism: part I. Physiology. Crit Care Resusc 2002; 4:301–306

The link to the full text article is: http://cicm.org.au/journal/2002/december/CPMI.pdf

This is an endorsed publication by an intensive care specialist from Adelaide back in 2002. Linked from the College of Intensive Care, who oversee training and accreditation of all intensive care specialists in Australia and New Zealand. Intensivists and renal physicians you will find have more knowledge and expertise in electrolyte management than any other speciality of doctor.

Phosphate has a molar weight of 94.97g/mol

The normal dietary intake of phosphate was 40mmol, which from its molar weight, is about 3800mg.

Phosphate is also freely filtered at the glomerulus in the kidney, so the body's ability to clear it is incredibly high. Huge. As the article says, "Of the 180mmol/day of filtered phosphate...". The kidneys filter out from the blood more than 17 grams of phosphate a day. The kidneys then reabsorb ~95% of that before it's lost in urine, to prevent a deficiency of phosphate.

Parathyroid hormone inhibits that reabsorption, and chronic renal failure patients all have hyperparathyroidism, but they also have shitty filtration rate in the kidneys also, and mostly have an inability to clear excess phosphate. Which is why practically all chronic kidney disease patients on haemodialysis take phosphate binders in their diet and are on low phosphate diets.

The suggestion that a high phosphate diet is associated with ADHD is factually inaccurate and not supported by any robust, peer reviewed scientific evidence. The link by Urbangriller leads to a page about the supposed connection, and information about the evidence used to write the article includes an "unpublished 1973 research paper" by a Dr Roy-Feiler, extracts from a news article in "The Age", and quotes from Dr Ursula Klemm (also unpublished).

An ampoule of phosphate we use for therapeutic purposes (treatment of hypophosphataemia, normally from refeeding syndrome or alcohol abuse) at work.


If you have evidence based arguments about purported health concerns with dietary phosphate intake, I'd love to hear them. Speculation and opinions are just that.

I don't have any commercial interests in rubs or brines containing phosphate either, or any connection to the people on the forums who sell them.

[urbangriller]

Found a couple of Scaremongerers that I thought you blokes might like to look at:

These blokes think that lowering phosphate intake can reduce cancer rates:

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/ ... 032310.php

And these chaps think lower phosphate intake might reduce rates of heart disease:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 105214.htm

I say again what I said in the beginning, there is already too much Phosphate in the average diet (read the packets of the foods you eat).....it's in everything (almost) even softdrinks. Yes it's legal...but that doesn't make it good.

If you are going to use Phosphate......WATCH YOUR INTAKE.

Chris

[gindemon]

These blokes think that lowering phosphate intake can reduce cancer rates

"These blokes" were mostly girls for starters. They used mice which have been genetically altered to have no ability to resist cancer development. They fed ALL the mice a high level phosphate diet until 8 weeks of age. Then they shaved them and "topically treated" them with chemicals to induce growth of warts. As the article says, "all mice developed at least one papilloma and papillomas of similar size at the end of trial", the mice who had a higher phosphate diet AFTER 8 weeks of age grew their papillomas faster.

So if you're concerned about your rate of papilloma growth (papillomas are also known as warts) and you're a genetically modified mouse, sure, lay off the phosphate. They won't grow as big.

And these chaps think lower phosphate intake might reduce rates of heart disease:

The title of the article your link refers to is: "Dietary phosphate modulates atherogenesis and insulin resistance in apolipoprotein E knockout mice"

The abstract includes nuggets like:

Epidemiological studies link higher serum phosphate and the phosphatonin fibroblast growth factor 23 with cardiovascular events and atheroma, and they link lower serum phosphate with insulin resistance and the metabolic syndrome.

and

A high-phosphate diet accelerates atherogenesis in apolipoprotein E(-/-) mice, whereas low phosphate intake induces insulin resistance.

And, just as some icing on the cake....

Apo E deficient mice show impaired clearing of plasma lipoproteins and they develop atherosclerosis in a short time

So in summary: This article used mice who abnormally develop atherosclerosis automatically to show that if you fed them phosphate, they did indeed develop atherosclerosis. And if you didn't feed them phosphate, they developed insulin resistance, diabetes, and metabolic syndrome.

If you are going to use Phosphate......WATCH YOUR INTAKE.

This is scaremongering, not based on any solid scientific evidence, and your preoccupation with this topic is unsettling.

An alternative argument could in fact be: Consume phosphate to avoid insulin resistance, diabetes, and metabolic syndrome. But just like the nonsense you've posted already Urbangriller, there isn't robust evidence to support statements like that.